Merely ‘Ellen’s’ title remains a puzzle, around appears to be zero-you to definitely entitled Ellen or Helen, but maybe a keen ‘Eleanor’ for the Joanna’s top (Eleanor out-of Aquitaine, mom of Joanna’s dad King John)

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The main function of so it exercising is to use, by the a peek at genealogist’s viewpoints about them and by consulting certain understood new source, to decide who was simply mom out-of Gwladus Ddu ferch Llywelyn. Is she Joanna, partner out-of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth (Joan Plantagenet: Created circa.1188, died. February 1237) or is she Tangwystl ferch Llyarch from Rhos, domme regarding Llywelyn, produced circa. 1168, passed away??

I shall follow this that have a secondary investigation with the you can easily lifetime of an excellent ded Susanna, given out over King Henry 111 while the a hostage into the 1228 along with her infant custody getting offered in order to Sir Nicholas Verdun along with his spouse Clementia.

The latest feedback of one’s Genealogists that i possess analyzed are just one to, views, and so they differ considerably. Zero particular facts is obtainable anyway, but have to declare that almost all hold to have Gwladus to-be this new daughter regarding Joanna. This is also true of the genealogists of your descendants from this new De Braose family, but they ily become linked with the Welsh and you can English royal domiciles!

The following list regarding Llywelyn’s numerous legitimate and you can illegitimate college students appears getting basically accepted by all the genealogists that we has actually learned except for distinctions more whether no. 9 most lived. The fresh new dates off beginning given below are debated by some:

1. Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, produced circa.1199, died 1244
2. Gwladys Ddu ferch Llywelyn, produced circa.1206, passed away 1251
3. Ellen (Helen, Elen) ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1206? died circa 1253,
4. Margred (Margaret) ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1208? died circa 1263,
5. Dafydd ap Llywelyn, Prince out-of Wales, born circa 1208 (1211?) (second thoughts about this big date, pick afterwards), passed away twenty five February 1246,
6. Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1209 passed away 1281.
7. Angharad ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1210, passed away 1257
8. Tegwared ap Llywelyn – born circa 1210, possible twin to Angharad?
9. ‘Helen’, otherwise ‘Susanna’, produced circa 1214? Passed away 1259?

You will find much argument across the label of your mothers out of this type of students. There is general agreement the simply certain children of Llywelyn’s elizabeth Prince out-of Wales and you may Ellen (Helen) just who hitched (1) vilkaise hyperlinkkiГ¤ John this new Scot, child of your own earl regarding Chester and (2) Robert de Quincy. Regardless of if viewpoint try split up along side moms and dads away from Gwladus, Gwenllian, Margred and you will Susanna, all the genealogists I’ve analyzed slim towards the its mom being Joanna.

This is certainly partly due to their heading dates away from delivery since the really since their marriages to different marcher lords who, one supposes, will have wanted so you’re able to line up their homes compared to that of their neighbor, the fresh Prince out-of Northern Wales and his awesome wife, the new queen from England’s child. It’s believed that these lords of your March wouldn’t had plenty focus otherwise political desire within the marrying of its sons into the illegitimate daughters away from good Welsh prince that have a beneficial Welsh lady.

To what labels ones youngsters, whether from the Joanna, Tangwystl or others, these people were most of the titled once members of Llywelyn’s friends:

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Llywelyn’s mom try called ‘ed ‘Susanna’ of Gwynedd. Their paternal grandma are called ‘Gwladus’. The mother and father from their grandmother Susanna, was ‘Gruffudd’ ap Cynan and ‘Angharad’ away from Flint and each other the labels were given to Llywelyn’s people. It Susanna and additionally got a sister titled ‘Gwenllian’, an identical name just like the Llywelyn’s great grandmother.